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| routing bindings and purling http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=43433 |
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| Author: | D Shaffer [ Mon May 12, 2014 2:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | routing bindings and purling |
Building first guitar, Parlor 00. Ready to install binging and purling. May build a binging jig/router stand later, but for now wanted to know if anyone has used the SM purling or binding guide that fits on the Dremel tool Dave |
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| Author: | Joe Beaver [ Mon May 12, 2014 2:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: routing bindings and purling |
I started out using the stew mac setup. If you work carefully it is not bad. I now use a router with bearings. You have to use something to slant the base angle to match the angle of the sides to the top and back. |
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| Author: | WendyW [ Mon May 12, 2014 2:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: routing bindings and purling |
I did my first 2 guitars with it and they came out very well. If we're talking about the same thing, the precision router base for a dremel with the precision router edge guide. It's slow and you don't want to go full depth all at once, but it works. As a matter of fact, I used it yesterday to cut the top and back flush to the sides before binding, just because I was too lazy to set up my laminate trimmer on my binding machine. |
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| Author: | Nick Royle [ Mon May 12, 2014 2:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: routing bindings and purling |
Another option that has worked very well for me...http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/bindingmachine.html Couple of bits of plywood and a router. Certainly less chance of mistakes than with the Dremel kit. |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Mon May 12, 2014 3:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: routing bindings and purling |
Dave there is another option for you. Instead of going the Dremel route and finding out what many of us have learned the hard way that Dremels are not powerful enough to handle binding ledges as well as we might want why not consider the following. Instead of investing in the Stew-Mac Dremel router base, for now, and all the other things that you will need that are specific to the Dremel consider purchasing a decent laminate trimmer now and making a donut to attach to the base permitting you to route the binding channels and compensate for the domes of the top and back. If you go to Stew-Mac's site and download the dreadn*ught guitar kit instructions (free) they discuss making and using one of these: http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Kits/Acoustic_Guitar_Kits/Dreadnought_Guitar_Kit.html?tab=Instructions The idea is that since the guitar's top is domed, back too anything that registers off the top will have a lean to it resulting in binding and purfling channels that are not uniform in size. By doing a bit of simple math (I say simple but I can't remember at the moment what I did to determine the angle of my wedges (donuts)) you can make two simple, self stick wedges that attach to the laminate trimmer base and will compensate for the dome and resulting lean of the laminate trimmer. Making a mark on the base at the shallowest point, as seen in my pics, and endeavoring as you go around the guitar to keep the mark pointed toward the center of the guitar and the top dome will be compensated for and the resulting binding channels will be pretty uniform. The best part is that if you stay with guitar building at some point you will want to use a laminate trimmer or something more powerful for binding channels. This way you will have invested in where you want to be and not something that in short order may frustrate and provide less than stellar results. Later when you invest in a proper binding channel jig you will already have the laminate trimmer. This rig also does a great job of trimming the excess off the top and back plates too. Be sure to understand and make "climb cuts" too when cutting binding and purfling channels. They are explained if you don't already know about climb cuts in the Stew-Mac kit instructions too. Here are a couple of pics of what I made and did when I was first starting out. I still use it to this day to trim the excess and could and would use it for the channels too but I also have a big-arse binding channel jig. Hope this helps! |
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| Author: | mqbernardo [ Mon May 12, 2014 5:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: routing bindings and purling |
i used the stew mac precision router base with the add-on guide and a dremel on my latest (my 3rd), so i guess it´s quite similar to what you´re thinking of. i did use a brand new bit, but was amazed by how easy it went. like others have said, if you take it slowly and carefully, it works. |
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| Author: | wbergman [ Mon May 12, 2014 6:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: routing bindings and purling |
Guys, I still do not understand the principle of the climb cut when using a 30,000 rpm bit, but I defer to those of you who have the experience. Have any of you done comparisons with the same bit and different directions? My first couple of channels, I used a Dremel with router base and just used a small clamp to attach a block of wood to the router base to make the guide. This guide was notched to fit around the bit. It was fat enough to project down the side. I ignored the dome, but these were classicals which maybe had a slighter dome than some of you deal with. I think the effect of dome is reduced if you have a false base on the router, so the only a half inch or so is in contact with the top. |
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| Author: | Joe Sallis [ Tue May 13, 2014 3:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: routing bindings and purling |
You're not going to get better advise than Hesh's. |
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| Author: | Bobc [ Tue May 13, 2014 6:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: routing bindings and purling |
RPM has nothing to do with climb cut. The principal is to cut with the grain of the wood and not against it to prevent tear out. |
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| Author: | kencierp [ Tue May 13, 2014 7:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: routing bindings and purling |
Here's my blurb on cutting binding channels with a hand held device. Way back when, I built a few guitars using a Dremel for channels -- I'll just say that the added power of a trim router is a quantum improvement. http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/un ... nnels.html http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/bi ... ution.html |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Tue May 13, 2014 9:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: routing bindings and purling |
"Guys, I still do not understand the principle of the climb cut when using a 30,000 rpm bit, but I defer to those of you who have the experience. Have any of you done comparisons with the same bit and different directions?" "RPM has nothing to do with climb cut. The principal is to cut with the grain of the wood and not against it to prevent tear out." Actually the idea behind climb cutting is to eliminate the wood "ahead" of the cutter and make it take smaller bites.When routing in this direction the router wants to "climb" out of the cut so it requires a firm hand and shallower cuts. I "climb" rout the ledge continuously around the perimeter of the top. After climb routing has eliminated most of the wood, carefully making a pass in the normal direction can give a cleaner channel. |
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| Author: | kencierp [ Tue May 13, 2014 9:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: routing bindings and purling |
Ditto Clay Of course people have tried to route binding channels with high RPM routers in the convention direction -- that's why we know the results can be poor and sometimes disastrous and instruct new comers to avoid this hazard/mistake. |
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| Author: | Goodin [ Tue May 13, 2014 9:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: routing bindings and purling |
I invested in a Bosch Colt laminate trimmer and Stew Mac complete binding and bearing set, and glad I did. http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Speci ... xsr=452331 |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Tue May 13, 2014 10:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: routing bindings and purling |
Routers will do the job just fine the issue is direction so think of it this way the bit is spinning clockwise if this were a tire the router would run basically counter clockwise that is a climb cut I really like the ridge trim router , it will mount well on most binding rigs and is secured with 2 5mm bolts all adjustments can be made from the front. it is all about the angle of attack of the cutter bit. While a climb cut and rout cut both work there is the one variable you as a builder are confronted with and that is the wood and it ability to split. So think that the outer parts of the bouts will want to break off if the bit is cutting from inside to out , these areas you want to climb cut. The only thing you need to be aware of is feed rate. Take small nibble bits , don't try and hog it off. If you smell smoke you are going too slow. It won't take long to get a feel for it. |
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| Author: | jac68984 [ Tue May 13, 2014 10:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: routing bindings and purling |
wbergman wrote: Guys, I still do not understand the principle of the climb cut when using a 30,000 rpm bit, but I defer to those of you who have the experience. Have any of you done comparisons with the same bit and different directions? When routing binding channels for the back, you're pretty safe. However, the first time you forget to defer to others here who tell you to climb cut when routing binding channel in softwood tops and a quarter-inch piece of your outside upper bout goes sailing across the room, you'll really wish you'd heeded the warning. Ask me how I know. I will make a different suggestion. Buy LMI's gramil and a spare blade, sharpen, and cut the channels by hand. It's a great skill to have, it's simple, and it can produce as good or better results than any power tool (this is especially true for builds where your sides might not be perfectly vertical, which will screw with about any sort of power router cut). I have all the fancy bits, routers, William's jig, etc. . . but I use the gramil for every build. It generally is used in conjunction with a power tool - I score the top and back with the gramil to the exact width of the binding, rout a channel that is a few thousandths shy of that score line, and use the finely honed gramil once more to pare aware the remainder. Takes a bit more time, but it's worth it to me to make sure I have tight fitting, even width bindings in the end. |
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| Author: | wbergman [ Tue May 13, 2014 11:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: routing bindings and purling |
Thanks for the clarifications. Part of my problem is the definition of "climb cut", which is not the same at other (non-luthier) sites as used here. But I think I get the idea. |
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| Author: | Glen H [ Tue May 13, 2014 12:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: routing bindings and purling |
Hi wbergman, it is the same (luthiery vrs other woodworking). The leading edge of the router bit is rotating inward, toward, the wood surface. This causes the bit to lift away from the wood (climbing). |
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| Author: | D Shaffer [ Tue May 13, 2014 2:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: routing bindings and purling |
Thanks to all, particularly Hesh and Aaron. I have the LMI grail and planned to use it with my Dewalt Laminate trimmer but appreciate the suggestion of leaving a final trim for the gramil. Hesh, I'm going to modify my trimmer base. Dave |
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| Author: | wbergman [ Tue May 13, 2014 2:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: routing bindings and purling |
Gosh, I wrote a long post and must have hit the wrong button. Anyway, I am seeing some advice that the climb cut is used on only alternating 1/8ths of the perimeter, as sketched by StewMac, but perhaps not totally explained. To climb cut around the entire perimeter would run alternating segments in a way to lift the grain, I think. |
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| Author: | maxin [ Tue May 13, 2014 2:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: routing bindings and purling |
Hey -- Nick Royle Post some pictures of the binding thing you made with a couple of pieces of plywood, sounds interesting. |
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| Author: | Nick Royle [ Tue May 13, 2014 4:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: routing bindings and purling |
Ok, maxin, but prepare yourself for an ugly looking jig! haha... Very simple concept and can be made much prettier than mine. On my first guitar I used something very similar but then I found this slightly different version on Kenneth Michael Guitars... (Ken, hi, hope you don't mind me showing it. It's a great design. I'm yours are of a quality faaar beyond what I made.!) Attachment: image059.jpg Attachment: image060.jpg Attachment: image061.jpg Attachment: P1070050.jpg Attachment: DSC_0074.jpg Hope this is helpful. Cheers, Nick |
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| Author: | Glen H [ Tue May 13, 2014 7:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: routing bindings and purling |
I don't know why stewmac shows multiple cuts as you mention other than just that the follow up non-climb cut is then against safe areas (where climb cuts aren't really required). I do my cuts climbing all the way around and then follow up with non climb cut. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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| Author: | RusRob [ Tue May 13, 2014 8:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: routing bindings and purling |
I used a design that is a mix of Hesh's and Nick's It is hand held but has the same adjustments as Nicks with the bit mostly covered to produce the desired depth of cut so it doesn't require the bearings. Because most of the bit is inset in the guide it makes it pretty fool proof. The leading edge just under the bit rides along the side of the guitar so it cuts a parallel channel with the sides. This one is made out of Sintra which is an expanded PVC and is glued together with CA glue so it is pretty easy to build but can be made out of wood. I have seen a few variations of this same jig made of wood and metal. |
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| Author: | kencierp [ Tue May 13, 2014 8:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: routing bindings and purling |
Nick no problem trying to copying our the KMG design -- it very complimentary. Matter of fact I am a "Best Practice Industrial Engineer" by trade so I sort of made a living copying tools and methods. I would say however that some of the "goof proofing" features are missing and you'll not be able to route contoured backs as accurately (and completely) as the real KMG machine. RusRob -- seems your device will work fine on a flat surface, however that fixed angle base/guide does not seem like it can possibly match the geometry complexity of a 15' contoured back. A true complimentary angle base rides on a narrow perimeter path 1/4" or so -- the edge. How do you route the heel end of the body and tight waist curves? This geometry http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/un ... nnels.html |
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| Author: | Nick Royle [ Tue May 13, 2014 10:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: routing bindings and purling |
Thanks Ken! Glad it's ok with you. It has worked very nicely for me and I always credit you when I post a pic of it. I started chucking that one together just as a tester but it worked and I haven't yet bothered to make it properly and with an adjuster. I'm trying to work out if there's any "goof proof" bits on yours that I haven't noticed. I tried making a "shuttle" with medium and low density foam but couldn't really get it to work smoothly, so I just hold the body as I did on my first guitar with the similar but slightly different jig. I think my channels have been a little shallow in the waist but otherwise I've been surprised at how seamless the final product has looked. Didn't have any gaps to fill at all on my last one. I'm going to make it again before my next guitar, mainly because I feel like I should be ashamed to use something that looks like it was chewed into the right shape by a dog! I don't really feel the need for a "tower" system yet. Only thing I always have to quadruple check is that I'm pushing the guitar in the right direction. My brain always has difficulty "turning the diagram upside down" and knowing which is a climb cut. I test obsessively before the guitar gets near the router though. |
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